gig report MA112---warning---long message

First of all--this isn't Talkbass so I can say whatever I damn well please!



I make speaker cabinets. I make money selling them. So obviously I have a bias. But you can believe me or not, but I feel that I do have  a certain degree of objectivity. I'm a professional bass player first. After the health and happiness of my family my next most important priority in life is my enjoyment of playing bass for a living.I will only play gear that provides the most success toward that goal. I'm fortunate that I'm building speaker cabs that bring me closer to that ideal than anything else I've played. I've really tried to take the high road, but there are other bassists making other cabs commercially that don't share the same values. That are trying to get me bounced from TB. Not to mention names but one guy ( who is a great guy and player)--I talked to him months ago and said--"man, you've got to try these cabs!" he said "I'll try them, but you know I can't use them" Meaning that even if they were better and enhanced his playing experience he wouldn't use them because it might hinder his sales. Which is totally valid, I guess. But that's not me. If someone came up to me tomorrow with a cab that I felt was dramatically better than my cabs--I'd play it. And figure out another way to make money.

I think that this camp has issued a fatwah against me.

Anyhoo--the MA112

I'm stoked beyond belief

I just played a gig with a top wedding band in Chicago---some of the best players in town. 12 pieces. BIG downtown ballroom. I'd say 120' by 120' with 25 ft. ceiling. Big. I purposely asked to not be in the PA. My Roscoe through my Puma 900. Got the lvel set so that I was just under hitting the red light for input. Master never got past 10 o'clock. It might have been putting out 300 watts. 8 ohm 18sound 12. I was playing as loud as I've ever played. Had the speaker close to its limit. The 18sound is surprisingly efficient.

This speaker has more low end power and a more visceral low end than ANY speaker I've ever played. Absolutely crazy. But tight and controlled---I swear it would make any 212 sound anemic as far as power.With the mids firing right at me I could hear the midrange and high range as well or better than anything I've played through.. No bloat--no boom--no overhang.

I have two pickups. One in a position like if you were to draw a line exactly equidistant between the pole pieces of the two halves of a P bass. The other a dead-on Music man.

With the neck pickup I took off the  low mid filter on the 112. This filters out a mid plateau about 3db up from about 550hz on up. I left the 1700 notch filter on. With the neck pickup that mid rise gave just enough cut to the mids. Never harsh or wanky. And I could hear every midrange and upper range nuance perfectly. THE BIGGEST MOST POWERFUL SOUND I'VE EVER GOTTEN. A little bit of P Bass spread but crazy good note articulation and separation.

I switched to the MM position. Turned the filter switch on. Boosted the bass a bit. Maybe from 12 o'clock to 12:30. Gave myself a little lower mid boost on the bass to give a tiny bit more thickness to the notes. OMG. Played with that sound all night. Sounded like Bernard Edwards (Chic) but with the craziest powerful low end you've ever heard. But tighter, faster and more focused than the P position. Listen to "Everybody Dance" by Chic. Imagine him mixing in a small amount of lower octave pedal.

The B string is off the charts. Played synth lines --palm mute and with my thumb. More powerful than the 210 Flex.

The 112 sounds like more of a great bass guitar cab than my other cabs. A bit like a Berg 212 but with a much bigger and better controlled low end. I think the mids are better, too. The Berg mids are coming from a 12. This is coming from a 12 with four 3" mids overlapping.

A comparison with the 210 Flex

At first I though "wow--this may be better than the 210 Flex--damn!" It's not. It's just as good. But it's different. The Flex is incredibly refined but powerful at the same time. The 112 has a different kind of power.

Maybe this is dumb--but
The Flex is a Ferrari
The 112 is a Corvette ZR1

The Flex has the refinement and responds to the slightest change in direction with elegance and power. But it's like the Ferrari with a nitrous switch. Hit the bright switch and it'll kill you. But still respond to every nuance.

The 112, like the Vette is likely going to go just about as fast on the track.  It doesn't have the nuance and refinement but it has torque, power and a lot of testosterone. It might even win the race.

The Flex and 112 (with the 18sound) go about the same volume level. But the 112 feels like it has more power. The Flex has its kick in the midbass with crazy extension and insane low end tautness. But it has a tiny bit more upper bass/lower mid warmth. So it has the illusion of a tiny bit more warm low end but incredible speed and agility in the low end. Kicking like a mule on PCP in the midbass. And then you throw in the best mids of any speaker.

The 112 has its power in the midbass like the Flex---but it's like its torque range extends lower. It has crazy control due to that spectacular woofer, but more balls over a bit wider range.The Flex has a small bump in the upper bass/lower mids. So that warmth compliments a bit leaner low end. Still bigger than any other brand speaker on the planet. The 112 is flatter throughout the upper bass/lower mids but more muscular below the kick-like-a-mule point of the Flex.

The 112 is a bit more mid forward than the Flex in the neutral position. With the lower mid filter off I'd say it splits the difference between a Berg and a Baer. With the high mid filter off it has a very cool midrange grind.

The 112 is a better rock speaker. They are both on par as far as funk/r&b. The Flex might be a better fusion speaker. But only by a small margin. The Flex is a better solo bass, complex chording speaker.

I've got to get a 112 to top rockers and funk guys. I've got to get a Flex to Anthony Jackson. Dig?

Here's a big thing---

The 112 has the best ergonomics of any speaker I've played. The dogbones are exactly in the middle from top to bottom. It's only 15 1/2" wide. The fact that it's deeper than wide and 32" tall makes it easier to haul that your luggage. It's not a heavy cab--maybe 52#. But the weight distribution is perfect. You'll only be lifting it up stairs ( a piece of cake since it's narrow and balances perfectly), going through doorways, or loading into the car. Since it's at a perfect balance point, when loading it you bend you knees, straighten up, and it just tips right into the car. I have to admit--the ergonomics were just dumb luck---but the gods of speaker design were smiling on me.

OK---ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING

Due to the badassedness of the 18sound---thermal power compression is virtually non existent .It's the first speaker that I've ever played that didn't change in sound at all after being hammered at full power for an hour and a half. This is a HUGE big deal. All of the Kappalites have much worse power compression. This is mitigated with the 210 Flex to a degree due to the fact that two drivers dissipate heat better than one. But the 112 is better in this regard.

Ok-- this is a biased guy speaking

The 210 flex is--I think--the best speaker I know to play an electric bass through
The MA112 is the best electric bass speaker

I am now going to sleep.

I thought the 110 Flex proto had a great rock voice so interesting that you say this one may be even better suited. Cool on the form factor. A stacked pair could make a nice wall of stupid.

Mike, I saw your post the other day on TB: " I worked really hard on two areas--smooth out too much bumpage from 180 to 250, and rather than a slight scoopage between 600 and 2500---let's see if we can bring it up a tad. It's only a few db up but enough so that their is a stronger midrange presence---but still pretty hifi. "
Now I'm not a bass player, not even a guitar player, so maybe you could explain all of the crossover work and variations you guys have done. This model bumps up here and down there, this one does such and such...why not make them fairly flat, and just have a 9, 11, hell, why not a 31 band or so EQ on the amp? Just the logical end step of the progression of all of the arming switches, etc they have. I'm not criticising, just pondering and confused!

I saw your post the other day on TB:
"...

In short: the artist wants to START with the desired sound from the loudspeaker without using EQ. Then EQ and other changes in the signal chain can be used to mitigate environmental issues or generate effects. If too much EQ is used to get a tonal baseline then options will be limited on a gig. Many bassists have more than one amp or preamp forcing a dialing of EQ on each to get the desired baseline. Finally knobs can get moved accidentally. Built in tone - not so much.

rich4349 wrote:Mike, I saw your post the other day on TB: " I worked really hard on two areas--smooth out too much bumpage from 180 to 250, and rather than a slight scoopage between 600 and 2500---let's see if we can bring it up a tad. It's only a few db up but enough so that their is a stronger midrange presence---but still pretty hifi. "
Now I'm not a bass player, not even a guitar player, so maybe you could explain all of the crossover work and variations you guys have done. This model bumps up here and down there, this one does such and such...why not make them fairly flat, and just have a 9, 11, hell, why not a 31 band or so EQ on the amp? Just the logical end step of the progression of all of the arming switches, etc they have. I'm not criticising, just pondering and confused!

I saw your post the other day on TB:
"...

I know exactly what you're saying. I totally agree.

I was an endorser for Euphonic Audio amps and speakers. I helped them design one of their newer amps. They asked "what features would a perfect amp have for you?
The first thing I said was "five fully parametric bands" they said that no one would buy it and they're probably right.

First of all---most bass players are afraid of or aren't willing to learn anything but the most basic eq.

Second of all---as a functional sound I've come to learn that flat is not necessarily best. There are certain colorations that work best for different styles of bass playing. To be honest---a perfectly flat speaker doesn't sound good for electric bass. And for all but the most experienced eq guys---it is a daunting task to manipulate eq to get the right tonal balance. So we speaker designers figure out a bassic eq curve for our target audience. That's also why we offer different models with similar dynamic capabilities but different sonic voicings.

One very important project for me is integrating a DSP module into the cabs. That way I could come up with downloadable curves for the players. And they could come up with curves and share them on the forums. What I envision for the future of bass amplification is a powered speaker with DSP that is easily manipulated by the end user.

Jim Bergantino tried this but eventually bailed. He used great amp modules and very sophisticated DSP. Problem was that the DSP was not really easily changeable for the user. Berg would program the DSP for the cab and that was that. Changing it would be like me trying to program in DOS. There is a company called Mini DSP that is offering progressively more powerful DSP modules that are geared toward making the interface very user friendly. If I'm not mistaken they are even making an affordable one that has the ability to plug in a mic, make a room measurement and it will auto--correct to flat. What I'm trying to see is if you could provide a programmed curve of the sound you want and it could auto correct to that curve. That would be da bomb.

That MA112 with the 18 Sound is a work of art! I'm pretty close to putting my order in for a Demeter Minnie VTBP-M-800D. From our earlier conversation it should work great with the MAS-66 but does it also have enough drive to be effective with the MA112? I called Demeter amplification about the overheating and cutout a couple users had experienced and spoke with his tech who does a lot of the actual testing and mods. They made some adjustment for more effective heat transfer but said the heat sink is 4x more than required by the amp module manufacturer.

Went to Mikes today with Randy (Radbass) to pick up my MA112. Used my Sadowsky NYC 5 and GK MB Fusion 800. 8 ohm 18sound installed. Same cab that Mike gigged the other night. Mikes description of "visceral" is spot on. After maybe 5 minutes, I was on the border of nausea and vertigo. I had to get the hell out the kill zone, so I asked Mike to play my Sado while I moved around the room. Still like getting thumped by someone with a bad attitude/intentions. Randy flipped the GK over to channel B with it's gain jacked up and Whammo! Instant Jack Casady. I needed a nap when I returned home later (no kidding). Need more time with the switches to find the "right" combo for me, but couldn't take anymore. I was not playing at an insane volume either. The GK puts out 560 watts into an 8 ohm load. Mike guessed we were using maybe 300 of it's watts, and I was getting pulverized. Never had my butt kicked by a cab like that before - well not since the mid 70's when I was using an SVT with two of the 8x10 cabs and a Sunn Coliseum with two 4x12 cabs running my Ric 4001 in stereo Ric-O-Sound. OUCH!   

5StringPocket wrote:That MA112 with the 18 Sound is a work of art!  I'm pretty close to putting my order in for a Demeter Minnie VTBP-M-800D.  From our earlier conversation it should work great with the MAS-66 but does it also have enough drive to be effective with the MA112?  I called Demeter amplification about the overheating and cutout a couple users had experienced and spoke with his tech who does a lot of the actual testing and mods.  They made some adjustment for more effective heat transfer but said the heat sink is 4x more than required by the amp module manufacturer.

Problem is companies are using wimpy modules to begin with and then running them on the edge to get more power out of them at the expense of stability and headroom.  It's insane what they are charging for that thing given what the actual parts cost.  When Mike is able to get me a module, we can definitely do a lot better.  I was thinking last night that in addition to a transformer for the front end, it would be nice to have a tube input stage (in a standalone unit).

mikearnopol wrote:The 210 flex is--I think--the best speaker I know to play an electric bass through
The MA112 is the best electric bass speaker.

   I'm a bit confused here.  Seems like you're saying 210 Flex AND MA112 are the best electric bass cabinets ????

Yes, you need one of each!  
Here is how it works. The MAS-210Flex came into existence long before the MA-112. So at the time the 210Flex was D-bomb. Now the 12" loaded MA-112 is out and Mike is describing it. He gets a bit carried away so... The best I explain is that the MA-112 is an unapologetic bass guitar loudspeaker that can be sophisticated. The MAS-210 is a sophisticated bass loudspeaker with many voicing options including bass monster. Mike can explain better, maybe.

I'd say that in terms of impact and function they are neck and neck. I wouldn't say one is better. And if you throw a double 46 or 66 in the mix---you have different flavors of excellent.
My over-exuberance with the 112 was due to the fact that it wayyy exceeded my expectations. All of the above mentioned speakers cover about the same dynamic range but with different sonic flavors ---all are excellent but excel in different arenas.

For instance---for my needs the 210 is the best cab I've ever played through. The 112 is very close and would exceed the 210 in several areas. But even though I prefer the 210 by a small margin---the 112 is an amazingly easy schlep. If I had both here I might just grab the 112 because it's so convenient.

I have one customer who purchased a 110 Flex/110 sub combo. It wasn't right for him. He said it was too punchy. (and I jokingly said "dude--there is no such thing as too punchy!). I sent him a 46 and he's getting two of them. The 46 is very balanced, hifi, and has a bit warmer low end without as defined of a mid--bass kick. Is it better or worse than the 210---neither--it's just different.

If someone was playing rock and roll---I'd say the 112 is better. But the 210 Flex or the 46/66 cabs would be great too.

What I'm going to try to do this week in mt website is start a FAQ comparing/contrasting the various cabs to maybe give a slightly clearer  picture of the differences.

I just get excited when a new design works so well!

Also---what makes the 112 such a great gigging speaker makes it maybe not as good of a living room speaker. Don't get me wrong---at moderate volumes it sounds great in a living room. But one is tempted to push it---and all of that visceral power can be a bit unsettling. The weird thing about all of these cabs---especially the 112---the volume you play at in the home environment can be deceptively loud. It doesn't seem that way. When Randy and Tom were over on Saturday---Randy commented on the fact that even at a loud level we could converse and hear each other with surprising ease. So in a way it didn't seem so loud. But if you played at that volume in a big club-even in a loud band---you might find that your level is too high. These cabs are trippy.

The amplifier portion of this thread has been moved here: MAS Power Project

Any updates on the MA112? Last word was the mids and crossover are being changed.

The basic MA-112 will remain unchanged at the existing entry level and price point. An MAS Signature version option package is what Mike is working on. The options would include the Eighteen Sound woofer, upgraded 4" midrange transducers, enhanced crossover, and switchable Ciare tweeter.

The idea here is to provide a killer bass loudspeaker at a great entry price that can be customized to the needs/desires of the individual artist without driving up the baseline cost: You only pay for the options you need.

So as to clarify---

We wanted the MA112 to  offer all of the advantages of the MVW (Big E) speakers at a reasonable price point. So you could get the full MVW sound, the ability to go head-to-head with any 212 speaker, and a killin' form factor---for $875. So the entry level MA112 has the Eminence 3012LF in either 4 or 8 ohms. To put this in perspective, a Greenboy Audio f212 uses the Kappalite 3012lf's at $1600. The Berg CN212 is $1170 if I'm not mistaken.The Barefaced bass Big Twin is about $2000 in the states. The MA 112 will go as loud and with better bass extension.With mids at least as good. The Berg and Barefaced just use 12's into horns crossed over above 2khz. The Greenboy does use a nice midrange. But the MA112 will kill it in the low end--and be competitive in the mids. And do all of the cool Big E stuff.

The basic MA112 also has two midrange switches to either pad down the 1700hz peak or smooth the 600hz and up 3db bump. Or not.

First upgrade is to the 18Sound 12. While it goes about the same volume as the 3012lf, it doesn't get barky, farty, or fuzzy until it finally gives up the battle. It has better thermal power rating. Which means it doesn't lose power as you run it hard. Which most other drivers do. And finally, it's the punchiest, most visceral low end I've heard.

The MA112 with the 18Sound is $975.

A bunch of guys have asked if we could get the 112 to sound as good as the Flex's. We can't. The two are different in voicing and presentation. Which is what I wanted. We can get it to the similar level of midrange clarity, but have to really do some crossover magic to get it there. Don't get me wrong---the midrange on the MA112 is excellent and comparable to or better than it's competition. And more flexible with the switching. And on a gig, I wouldn't imagine needing anything more. But there are a lot of nutty bass players out there.

Enter the MAS112. (MAS is the Signature series)
We move to the 4" Faital midrange/tweeters. To be honest, they go as high and sound as articulate as the 3 inchers. But they go a bit lower and cost a few bucks more. They allow us to get more overlap in the lower midrange area and offer a bit more midrange clarity. But the crossover has to be more complicated to even everything out. Duke will have the crossover done next week.

The MAS112 is $1100.

Options are

Corner wheels and a top rear handle   $50
Ciare tweeter                                $120
Switch for the Ciare                         $30

Since the MAS112 option came up after the first orders were placed, I'm doing it in the existing orders and offering it without upcharge to anyone ordering a MAS112 until 9/1.

Thanks for the Clarification Mike! Can't wait to get my hands on one!

I think the 18 sound is definitely worth the extra bill - very cool.

Any updates on the new 112 signature?

Yes--Duke is working on the crossover today. I've tried not to bug him as he's had a lot of his own speakers to get out but he'll likely be done tomorrow. The cabs are built and I'll likely have them out by the weekend. Thanks for your patience!

On the cab I sent him I put a Ciare on the 45 degree lower knock (as we call it) and one on the baffle just above the woofer. We'll exchange opinions and decide where it sounds best. The 4's will be run wide open so you'll get info up to 14k. The Ciare's will give that extra bit of "air" above that. We have to see how much the vortex grabs it and spits it forward. What we'll be listening for is if the one on the "knock" projects into the audience and how the one on the baffle reaches the player. Duke will be measuring and I trust his opinion on this one.

Awesome, thanks for the update! With the 4's going up 14k I am on the fence about the tweeter. Will the signature have a bass cab voicing like the standard ma112 or be more hifi like the 210 flex?

rich4349 wrote:Mike, I saw your post the other day on TB: " I worked really hard on two areas--smooth out too much bumpage from 180 to 250, and rather than a slight scoopage between 600 and 2500---let's see if we can bring it up a tad. It's only a few db up but enough so that their is a stronger midrange presence---but still pretty hifi. "
Now I'm not a bass player, not even a guitar player, so maybe you could explain all of the crossover work and variations you guys have done. This model bumps up here and down there, this one does such and such...why not make them fairly flat, and just have a 9, 11, hell, why not a 31 band or so EQ on the amp? Just the logical end step of the progression of all of the arming switches, etc they have. I'm not criticising, just pondering and confused!

I saw your post the other day on TB:
"...

I'm also into Hi-Fi and spend  time on other forums like the Klipsch Forums, DIY Audio, AudioKarma, Audio Asylum, to name a few. A driver and cab can only be designed to fit the design goal only so far. (Being flat may or may not be one of those goals.) Anyway, once the driver and cab are integrated, there will always be annoying peaks and dips. Peaks can be handled with built-in notch filters so anyone buying the cab will have a similar sound experience. Parallel notch filters are typically passive RCL circuits built into the crossover. And adjusting padding overall mids and highs to taste done with a toggle is more reliable and durable than a variable wire wound L-Pad, and also cleaner with less destruction to the original signal than active EQing.

Relying on EQ is certainly an accepted practice, but leaves the quality and character of the cab up to chance as the experience level of each user varies. Hi-Fi guys obsess over these things and complex passive crossovers can fetch thousands of dollars each as many use rare high tolerance capacitors and resistors, stranded wire coils, and some of these guys designing them have years of experience designing RCL circuitry in the military, and microwave communications industry. Many of them got into high end hi-fi stuff for the sheer passion of excellence.

Not to bash on active EQing, but those devices have op-amps and lots of other stuff inside them, and too much of it can be a big tone suck. One will always have to EQ as every room is different and may present troublesome annoying resonances, excessive boom, feedback, or other defects to be tamed with anything from a simple tone control on a musicians amp all the way to parametric EQing on the PA guy's board. Mike's approach is (and many will agree) to get the cab out the door as finely sounding as possible w/o the need to do excessive EQing by the musician or sound guy. IOW, it's ready to go and any tweaks can be done on the fly with a simple flip of a switch.

Mike is lucky to have Duke on-board as Duke really is the "go to guy", has one of the best names in the industry, and has the curriculum vitae to prove it.

Greetings Mike and Steve,

Thanks to a TalkBass post where Duke LeJuene was dropping some serious science explaining that some popular bass cabs using dual drivers and a tweeter are not producing true low bass information, I just discovered your cabinets today! After researching numerous cabs in search of "the last bass cabinet that I will ever need", I was super impressed with Ed Friedland's You Tube demo of the fEARLESS F112. I know that one can't truly experience the sound stage of a speaker cabinet via an online video, but I am still impressed. Then, I ran into a video of Mike testing the MA Deuce-4 bass cab in addition to the video featuring the MA Deuce-4 being used as a PA speaker playing recording music. Both of these demos blew me away!

What I am looking for is a cabinet that really kicks some serious bass, reproduces a true "picture" of the bass being played-not the cabinet, is hi-fi, clear, clean and punchy and eats the low B for breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight snack. In addition, it should be efficient enough to not require-but can handle-an amp putting out 800 watts @ 8 ohms. Right now, my choices are down to a fEARLESS F112 or F115 and one of your cabs, although I am not sure which one! I play electric bass only. I am not too keen on the fEARLESS price tags however. Which of your cabinets would suit my needs, why would it suit my needs and what is the cost? Also, I would prefer a 4 ohm cab but will take one rated at 8 ohms.

Thank you for your time and expertise!

Hi
Welcome to the forum!
I'm pretty much uniquely qualified to compare said cabs. I think that the fEARful cabs are very nice, well designed cabs --of conventional designs. I was an authorized builder for Greenboy's cabs. I finally parted ways because I couldn't in good conscience recommend them over the MVW (Big E ) cabs. I've built many f112's as well as all of the fEARful and fEARless cabs. The f112 is a nice cab. I think the best one Dave (Greenboy) has designed. I compared two of them to one MAS112. The 112 went about the same top volume but had a much stronger low end, dispersion like you wouldn't believe---but the most important difference is the envelope of the note, and the ability to maintain that envelope at louder volumes.
By envelope, I mean the immediate acceleration of the notes---but much more important---the decay of the note. To me, the biggest problem with ported cabs is not the start, but the end of the note. I'm more of a pizzicato funk/r & b/ funk/ fusion guy. So I play a lot of stopped, stacatto notes. At living room volumes, to be honest, there are a lot of cabs that I like. But on a gig, ported cabs have a LOT of "overhang" between the notes. When you crank 'em---the notes tend to run together. So you have this big "wash" of low end without enough distinction between notes. So---you wind up playing harder to try to get that "pop" and distinction. And have a very sore right hand at the end of a gig. I play bass for a living. I know!

With my cabs,when you stop a note, it stops. NEVER boomy.

Another advantage, the MVW cabs tend to excite room resonances to a MUCH lesser degree. So---even if you have a cab that starts and stops the notes better---if you excite room resonances (which you always do), any time you hit the notes (or closely adjacent notes), you get a terrible "overhang" that blankets your entire sound. The MVW cabs aren't magic, but in real life, they excite room resonances to a much lesser degree. Again--greater clarity.

One  practical thing this advantage gives---you wind up playing at a lower stage volume because the aspects of the notes that define pitch and rhythm (our functional component) can be achieved at a lower volume. So it brings down the inevitable "volume wars" that you usually have.

Also---I'm using better, more expensive drivers than in any bass cabs. The woofers in the f112 are Eminence Kappalites---a great choice. The woofers I'm using in the MAS112's are either the top 18sound or Faital woofers. Twice as expensive. Twice the power handling. But most important---they use 4" voice coils as opposed to 3". And are engineered for much better heat dissipation.

A dark, dirty secret that we speaker designers don't like to talk about is thermal compression. Ever play a gig and wonder why at the end of a set---the rest of the band has gotten louder? They likely haven't. It's just that as the voice coil heats up the impedance rises and you have much less power going to your speaker. So you turn up. Which ultimately makes it worse--which is why guys fry the voice coils in their speakers.The woofers I'm using are miles ahead of other drivers in terms of heat dissipation. And a 4" voice coils dissipates heat much better than a 3" voice coil. And---since there is so much dynamic air movement in an MVW cab--MUCH better heat dissipation.

Next---crossover design. Duke helps with all of my crossover design. He's--- quite literally--a world renown designer of high end hifi speakers. And, fortunate for me, a good friend that helps with crossover design.

Low end extension--- the -3db point ( the measurement that defines low end extension) is lower with MVW cabs.6 to 12 hz lower than any reflex cabs. Definitely lower than the f112. More importantly---they don't "unload" like a reflex cab does.In a reflex cab, When you get below the tuning frequency, the speaker is "unloaded". Which means it's  flopping around as if in free air.Most bass cabs are tuned to between 45 and 50 hz. Which means that anything they see below that---there is no cone control. Which is why I always used to say---before experiencing the MVW cabs---that low bass only serves to obscure the sound--use a high pass filter at the cab's tuning frequency. I've now found that low bass can be a very useful and functional part of our sound.The MVW cabs aren't magic--just kindof weird.Below the speaker's resonant frequency they drop like a boat anchor. But the resonant frequencies of the drivers I'm using is quite low. BUT---below that point--they don't UNLOAD. So--you get 6 to 12 hz more of functional low requency.

So--after this long winded spiel--I'd strongly recommend the MAS112 with the 4 ohm Faital woofer. Huge, controlled low end that will spank any 15 out there.And go functionally louder than any 15" cab.500 watts at 4 ohms is easy to come by and will drive it to the point of pain.

OK--I'm done!

Welcome to the forum, Bottomzone! Thanks for seeking us out. As far as your inquiries: what he said